Curse

Vlatro · Mar 21, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Better yet, scriptable AI. Let the player determine how a hero uses a skill. I see abuses to this in HB, but they could be disabled there. Even if it's something like setting a skill to target priority with no explicit If..Then statements, that would be awesome. Target locks for heroes to keep allies the focus of their spells and not just enemies.

On second thought, there would be a million hero 55's and IWAY would come back with a vengeance, maybe not.

angmar_nite · Mar 21, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

PS on a minion is good... You know how little health they have? It's actually legit efficient if they're being targeted.

Fitz Rinley · Mar 21, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

/Not signed

I dont have trouble with the monks using energy on Undead. Maybe it is a build problem for your monk. On Dunkie and Oggie I tend to use one of the following three builds depending on area:

OwAT043AZySLj4uBkokACMCENCA (Glimmer Signet Healer)
OwAT043AZquKj4uBkokACMCENCA (LoD Signet Healer)
OwAT043AZSjIj4uBkokACMCENCA (WoH Signet Healer)

If you check you will find the only difference between them is the elite.

I usually run either Sab's Minion Build (OANDUslfOL1qAeAN86qHBkqK) or one I call OoU Masachist (OANDUsx9QIVUBHV4BiBbhYCoRA). I won't say they never die or never run out of energy, but I just don't have the problems others do.

I do have a couple of rules on sigs/runes. I don't use supers. I use a lot of Undertaker for nec and Radiant for monk. I use maj prim, min class spec, maj vig, and then either 2 x attune or 2 x vitae. (Drop one of latter for Bloodstained with nec.)

I always get a max collector staff of primary (heal, death) and let it go at that.

Isileth · Mar 21, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

/signed

Its always a huge waste of energy and is quite often done before healing a team member.

Fluffy Butt · Mar 21, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Players (Hero's/Henchmen/people)
Allies (NPC's that's in bottom of menu)
Pets (Animal allies)
Semi Allies (Minions)
Meat Shields (NPC's thats not following the party)

Players equal to allies. Allies beat pets. Pets beat minions. Minions beat Meat shields.

In other words

Players = Allies
Allies -> Pets
Pets -> Minions
Minions -> Meat shields

Players and allies and a monks first priority, a must heal. Pet's seem to be healed just as much as players. However, if a NPC had to choose an ally or a pet. Ally wins, pet dies. Minions are only healed after or before battles. Never during them. When you are fighting with minions, the monk will only heal Pets, players or allies during fights. If 1 or 10 minions survive, the monks heal them. NPC's meat shields (Like Cathian Guards/peasents) The monks will never heal them. Because the seem to be unimportant to your party and will do just fine if they live or die.

I'll draw a picture if no one understands. I'm surprised no one realized this.

Shayne Hawke · Mar 22, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Manual cast Blood of the Master, and try using a minion bomber that's actually ready to let go of their minions and not keep them at -20 degen.

Numa Pompilius · Mar 22, 2008, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grasping Darkness

oooook
[dunkoro;OwUUMiG/OIOx1fXGplM9301D0IA]
let's not assume things and then we don't look like asses, ok?
and i have prot spirit disabled

I have a very hard time believing your hero actually uses those skills on your minions to the point he'll run out of energy. Very, very, hard. That he casts 5e heals on minions when he's at full energy is good, and not a problem.

I suggested you'd remove Healing Breeze for a reason: it's a 10e cast with short recharge, and heroes like to use it to counter degen. Even on minions. THAT may lead to energy problems.

To other posters I think you need to separate between the behavior of in-game NPC's (like Togo/Mhenlo in Vizunah Square) and the heros.
The NPC's treat the minions like they were team-members and will heal them like crazy, and that is a problem - but heros don't, and hero AI is what this thread is about.

I don't have any problem with if ANet were to tell the henches/heroes/npc's to not heal or cast prots on minions (with the exception of Dwayna's Sorrow), but frankly I don't have a problem with over-healing on minions now either.

/Signed, I guess, but I'm still not convinced the problem really exists.

Kanyatta · Mar 22, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

There should be something to toggle like "Hero/Henchmen Monks heal _All allies or _ just Party Members" and you could put a check mark in the blank or something.

StormDragonZ · Mar 22, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

I'm going to try not to sound mean when I say this:

Control your heroes better.

Isileth · Mar 22, 2008, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

I'm going to try not to sound mean when I say this:

Control your heroes better.

So you expect players to manage every single skill the hero uses?

Quite obviousely that just isnt going to happen. That would be harder than playing the monk yourself....with the added problem of trying to play your char as well!

This isnt something like MS being cast with 1 enemy left alive, thats an easy player fix.

This is every spell has a chance to be wasted on minions, you just cant control that away.

Konig Des Todes · Mar 22, 2008, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Something I would like to state, don't know if it has been stated but if not, If you make it so monks do not heal minions, then chances are the minion master heroes will not spam skills like death nova and jagged bones, which is very VERY good on a minion master. Also, if you give at least one skill to regain energy, or even Zealous Benediction, then energy shouldn't be a problem. Like I notice being mentioned, you should prepare ahead for the limitations of AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

So you expect players to manage every single skill the hero uses?

I manage all 3 of my heroes and my own skills/hp/eng almost all the time, it's not that hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grasping Darkness

[dunkoro;OwUUMiG/OIOx1fXGplM9301D0IA]

Suggestion: use all of your attributes, I set up my monk hero with that build, and it still has 37 attribute points left, that may help with healing minions, and therefore less need to use skills.

Isileth · Mar 22, 2008, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

I manage all 3 of my heroes and my own skills/hp/eng almost all the time, it's not that hard.

But we arent talking just the odd skill. To keep them from healing minions you would need to control them all the time. Everysingle skill you would have to target and cast yourself.

Then add the fact your controlling your char as well.
Plus the other 2 heroes.
Maybe one of those other heroes is a monk as well...

They are going to waste healing on the minions. And as for your suggestion about changing the build to account to this...

The energy is easy to do. My monks have never really had an energy problem.
The problem shows itself when they go and throw a prot or a heal at a minion and let someone die.

Its fairly obvious that they should focus all attention on the party members before (if at all) dealing with minions.

And this is why you would need to control each skill, now maybe your capable of playing 2-3 chars at once. But im fairly sure you will find your in a minority there if thats the case.

So the better heroes are at being able to act on their own, the better it is for teams.

Grasping Darkness · Mar 22, 2008, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Suggestion: use all of your attributes, I set up my monk hero with that build, and it still has 37 attribute points left, that may help with healing minions, and therefore less need to use skills.

that's only possible when you're lvl 20

Grasping Darkness · Mar 22, 2008, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Butt

Players (Hero's/Henchmen/people)
Allies (NPC's that's in bottom of menu)
Pets (Animal allies)
Semi Allies (Minions)
Meat Shields (NPC's thats not following the party)

Players equal to allies. Allies beat pets. Pets beat minions. Minions beat Meat shields.

In other words

Players = Allies
Allies -> Pets
Pets -> Minions
Minions -> Meat shields

Players and allies and a monks first priority, a must heal. Pet's seem to be healed just as much as players. However, if a NPC had to choose an ally or a pet. Ally wins, pet dies. Minions are only healed after or before battles. Never during them. When you are fighting with minions, the monk will only heal Pets, players or allies during fights. If 1 or 10 minions survive, the monks heal them. NPC's meat shields (Like Cathian Guards/peasents) The monks will never heal them. Because the seem to be unimportant to your party and will do just fine if they live or die.

I'll draw a picture if no one understands. I'm surprised no one realized this.

ya, thanks for your super special idea. you mind if i run my builds now? kthxbai

i'm really having a difficult time not trolling my own thread. posts by the ignorant, liars and people just flat out full of it need to gtfo.

Konig Des Todes · Mar 22, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Personally, I have never had a problem with my monks' energy, and Fluffy Butt is right about how hero monks seem to heal, I have only seen them heal minions while the party is idle. So your problem must be while you are idle, which means, keep moving? I am not ignorant, nor lying on this thread and I know I'm not full of it *as for me saying I manage my heroes fine, I don't control every skill every second like Isileth was apparently meaning, so can't use that to say I'm "full of it"*.

Isileth · Mar 22, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Personally, I have never had a problem with my monks' energy, and Fluffy Butt is right about how hero monks seem to heal, I have only seen them heal minions while the party is idle. So your problem must be while you are idle, which means, keep moving? I am not ignorant, nor lying on this thread and I know I'm not full of it *as for me saying I manage my heroes fine, I don't control every skill every second like Isileth was apparently meaning, so can't use that to say I'm "full of it"*.

Well a few things here.

1) Energy isnt the main problem, infact I like to run my heroes so energy is never really a problem even with minions.

2) As several people have said in this thread, they are healing and protting them mid fight. Thats the problem.

If they only did it while idle it wouldnt be a problem at all. But quite often they will go and waste a prot or a heal on a minion before a team mate. And this can quite easily lead to a death.

And as for managing them, yes I did mean constantly. Because to stop this behaviour you would need constant control over every single skill. As I said its not just a case of telling them when to use 1-2 skills. It would require you to select the target and use the skill every single time to stop them from targeting minions.

Even if it was possible to do so, you shouldnt have to. The AI should be sensible enough to not bother trying to save minions.

Konig Des Todes · Mar 22, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

1) Energy isnt the main problem, infact I like to run my heroes so energy is never really a problem even with minions.

Although energy is not your problem, it is the OP's problem, which is what I was referring too, not your problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

2) As several people have said in this thread, they are healing and protting them mid fight. Thats the problem.

If they only did it while idle it wouldnt be a problem at all. But quite often they will go and waste a prot or a heal on a minion before a team mate. And this can quite easily lead to a death.

I have never seen my heroes, or henchmen, heal or prot in middle of a fight, so sorry I cannot relate to your problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

And as for managing them, yes I did mean constantly. Because to stop this behaviour you would need constant control over every single skill. As I said its not just a case of telling them when to use 1-2 skills. It would require you to select the target and use the skill every single time to stop them from targeting minions.

Even if it was possible to do so, you shouldnt have to. The AI should be sensible enough to not bother trying to save minions.

For managing, I do tell them who to target and whatnot when it comes down to keeping a hero or henchman alive. It may not be constant, as that is impossible as you are suggesting, unless it is a bot, but it is not impossible to manage your heroes enough to keep your monk to healing people, other heroes, or henchmen so that they do not die.

parathract · Mar 22, 2008, 08:25 AM // 08:25

They could always add options and logic functions, as an option ofcourse. Such as:
If, Party Member Health is =< 75 %
Then, Cast or Use Skill in Skill Bar Slot Number 1
Skill Slot 1==Healing Breeze.

Keep in mind that such customizable AI options could slow response time and such. Also, it should strictly be an option, because not everyone may be adapt at it.

More Example:
If, Hero: Olias's Energy>= 50 %
Then, Disable Skill Slots 1,2,3 for Minion Targets Only
//Allows MM to maintain on own

Simple Logic Functions are easy for players to understand, and fairly easily converted to AI purposes.

It would be nice if Heroes were capable of doing more complex builds as well, I get so aggrivated when I put a build on a hero and it does not use it correctly, especially a simple build. One such example is using skills that have no relevance to the circamstances, or using them out of order and it costs the party greatly.

Numa Pompilius · Mar 22, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

2) As several people have said in this thread, they are healing and protting them mid fight. Thats the problem.

So you're seeing this problem too?
The OP seems disinclined to provide evidence or accept that the bug he's reporting isn't as common as he believes, but you could grab FRAPS and make a video where your hero monk is healing and protting your minions during a fight when there's humans/heroes that are not at full health.

It would be very interesting to see what the conditions are when they start spamming heals on minions.

(And again I'm talking about hero healers, not npc healers like Kurzick Priests or Mhenlo/Togo in Vizunah. Different kettle of fish.)

@Parathract: Take a monk and a MM out and watch what happens. As far as I've seen minions already are lowest priority for hero monks, and are not healed/protted when anyone else needs it, and they will heal the MM when he uses Blood of the Master.

Twonaiver · Mar 22, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

/signed

altho this sometimes help the flesh golem in frontline, the bone minions have to die, so its a fair price.